Official Luthiers Forum!

HI Colin, I don't believe I have ever spoken to you before in the past.
Since we have all crowned you the Mahogany King!! I have a couple of questions that needs an answer.
I have been an advocate of Mahogany for many years as a player. Since I'm a new Luthier this will be my first attempt at building a guitar with Mahogany.

Can you please tell me what would be the proper stain to use to get that deep color that Martin has used for many years. I like the color very much and am considering a Mahogany top model. All Mahogany guitar. Similar to Martin's 15 series. I ordered some really hi grade H. Mahogany which should do a great job. Now I need your help...Please, when you have the time.

Thanks Colin for your help!!
Happy Holidays!!

walter

Walter, yes I'm known for my love of mahogany , and also for the old Martin mahogany guitars, of which I have several in my collection. Unfortunately, it's the sound of the Martins I like, I myself wish they hadn't stained them! I've never stained any wood or in fact used anything other than blonde shellac. I like my wood the original colour if possible. Sorry, I'm afraid to let you down but I can't really help you. If one of the other guys can't come in with an answer I would suggest giving Stew Mac a call, their technical people are usually very helpful, and can probably suggest a dye. Even so, try on some off cuts, as all wood reacts differently to dyes. By the way, is this the colour your after?



Colin

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

Hi Colin,
Yes that's the color I'm looking for!
Why is it that you cannot help me with the coloring technique?? Or at least the dye used?

Thanks very much, walter

Walter, that is one of my vintage Martins ('63 OO-18). As I said above, I'm afraid I've never dyed any wood myself, just bought the Martins that colour. So I'm afraid I don't know the dye used or how to do it.

ColinColin S39077.1591550926

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I don't believe in anything, I simply make use of a set of reasonable working hypotheses.

MArtin uses a finish schedule
Sizeing
seal
fill-stain
seal
finish
   sizing is a "secret mixture" as they say but egg whites does the job. What sizeing will do is make the surface a bit hard so you can sand off the "feathers" and it makes the wood accept finish at a more stable rate.
   A spit coat of schellac does well also , then you seal up the body and use a filler / The filler that martin uses is a mineral based filler , they add a few drops of naphtha to the filler to aid flash time. The filler is colored to a dark chocolate color much like hershey syrup. also they use a dark stain.
   I found that dark walnut stain is pretty close to the color they use. They will stain then fill but they also ad the stain to the filler. Usually 2 coats of filler worked into the grain.
   then once that is dried and leveled with 320 grit it is sealed then the finish is applied.
good luck
john

The old master furniture makers would never use stain, but instead they would pull out the natural tannens by putting on a chemical wash. For mahogany, this is very easy. Put 1 teaspoon of lye (crystal drain cleaner ie., Drano)in a quart of water and apply to your wood. Let dry completely, lightly sand off the raised grain and finish normaly. The wood will appear very ugly prior to finish, but will have that deep antique finish when completed. Do a sample or 2 first as you can vary the color by changing the quantity of lye.

Dean
Dean39077.5252546296

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Dean

   The question was how does martin do it. Old master cabinet makers didn't have the stains available like today. old violin makers used cast iron pots to warm the schellac in. This absorbed the iron and made the schellac very dark.
    The old masters were very ingenious. One thing to consider before using a caustic like lye is that what it will do to the wood. The thin wood will react to the lye and this can cause some structural changes.
   

Thanks John for your detailed assistance with the Mahogany coloring.
You are a very knowledgeable man for sure. I appreciate your help.

Happy New Year!! WalterK39077.6163425926

To add a to John's post, here are a couple of action shots from the neck pore filling / staining bench at Martin. I took the pictures during a factory tour last year (photographing was permitted).

Can you say messy??!!

The first picture shows the stained filler being applied. One neck waiting to have the stuff applied is natural mahogany colored, the others look like they have just been dipped in dark chocolate.





In the next picture another lady is levelling the filler (I think); some of the mahogany color comes back, but the neck is pretty dark by now.

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin

Great pics Arnt, thanks!

Looks like you got right in the fray there doesnt it, judging by those pics??!! LOL
You must have got some strange looks from other members of the tour, hee hee what a die hard!
Cheers
Charliewood

Thankfully there was glass between that room and the passage where we walked! I hate to think what that stuff would have done to my camera if it had been allowed to "fill it's pores".

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Rian Gitar og Mandolin